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 Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team

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Lawson



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Mon May 06, 2013 3:11 pm

Outside of our little circle, it's unlikely that most movie-goers will make the comparison.

Tens of thousands of people read the comic books and know who Darkseid and Thanos are. Millions of people see the Marvel superhero movies.
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Mon May 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Lawson wrote:
...Millions of people see the Marvel superhero movies.
But some of those millions watched Smallville, the JLA cartoons, some of those millions even watched the Challenge of the Superfriends. Eh, your probably right. Even if they do remember they will probably not remember the name and just think it's the same guy.
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Chris W



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Tue May 07, 2013 1:10 am

Everybody sees the movies, but we don't connect them. The genius of Stan Lee/Marvel Comics/the Marvel Movies is that they figured out how to make entertaining self-contained stories *which connect to each other*. Other than "The Avengers", I haven't seen a Marvel Movie since the third X-Men, third Spider-Man, Ang Lee Hulk movies (too lazy to look up which was the most recent.) I enjoyed the comic book references in "Avengers", but more importantly, I've enjoyed hearing from others how the other Marvel Movies laid the groundwork.

We live in a world where people who know nothing and care less about comic books can distinguish between Marvel and DC. And they can answer questions by checking Wikipedia. I drilled my favorite 'pop culture' source about the after-credits scene to "Avengers" and heard roughly what I've just written. He thought it was Darkseid but wasn't sure, checked the internet and started asking me about Thanos. [He asked me about "Iron Man 3", I didn't have the answers and Wikipedia showed both of us that he was asking me about stuff from Warren Ellis' run in 2005. I've never read "Iron Man", or Warren Ellis, and certainly don't know what Marvel characters were doing 8 years ago.]

If people are thinking "Darkseid" when they see Thanos, that's a tribute to Jim Starlin's rip-off of Darkseid in the first place [even funnier is that Thanos started as a Metron rip-off.] They know it's not Darkseid. It looks like him, future movies will show that it acts like him, but it's not Darkseid. No matter how many DC media you've ingested.
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Terry M (Ditko Fan)

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu May 23, 2013 2:31 pm



Quote :
For a lot of freelancers, they really don’t get the option to avoid lucrative work because of their personal beliefs.
http://prtejeda.tumblr.com/post/44219220767/frank-santoro-before-watchmen-blacklist
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Peter Urkowitz

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:18 pm

Just how bad WAS "Before Watchmen"? William Leung at The Hooded Utilitarian has a pretty good answer, spelled out with details and examples:

http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/05/who-whitewashes-the-watchmen-part-1/

and

http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/05/who-whitewashes-the-watchmen-part-2/


And there's a good response by Eric Berlatsky here:

http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/06/eric-berlatsky-on-why-before-watchmen-may-be-slightly-better-than-that/


All very well argued, with nuance and insight, rather than frothing rage.
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:33 am

great link, thanks!
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:56 pm

I have all of the Before Watchmen issues sitting in a pile (& a couple of digital downloads that were sent to me) & I haven't had a chance to read all of them yet. I'll get around to it eventually & I imagine I'll find much of it entertaining. The list of talents working on this project is quite impressive & at least visually compelling.

I never really understood the popularity of the original Watchmen series. Mind you I enjoyed reading them when they first came out, but I just don't see it as the HUGE phenomenon that many fans do.

Here's my take on all the recent gaga...

DC owns Watchmen lock, stock & barrel. They can do whatever they want with the characters. It's a business decision & the fact that Alan Moore is butt-hurt is sad, but he appears to be a sensitive guy, so I'm not surprised. His loyal fans are also butt-hurt on his behalf & with that I can sympathize. However, as I said, DC owns Watchmen & the fact that DC waited THIS long to finally get around to some sort of Watchmen project is the surprising thing. The fact that they actually did it? Not surprising in the least.

Boycotting the talents because they worked on Before Watchmen is a waste of time & will serve no good purpose. Most are just jumping on the Moore hates DC bandwagon so they can be part of the "clique." Kinda sad, really.

-----

Now I'd like to address something that caught my Byrne-Radar...

James Ritchey III wrote:
Aging hasn't affected Ordway's work (as it certainly HAS Byrne), hasn't dated his work, but perception is everything among these shallow morons.

Ah perception. I perceive that anyone who believes aging has affected JB's work in any sort of negative sense are in desperate need of a new pair of trifocals.
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Chris W



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:18 am

You don't need to see "Watchmen" as a huge phenomenon, so much as you need to honestly answer "Is 'Watchmen' really, drastically different than the comics which came before, and, if so, shouldn't the creators who made 'Watchmen' happen share in its success?"

The first part of the question, the answer is 'yes'. The Charlton heroes didn't have such brilliant storytelling, and the DC heroes didn't engage the audience in the same way, unless they were written by Alan Moore. There definitely wasn't any precedent for a 12-issue story, beginning, middle and end, back-up features, and no ads. "Watchmen" may or may not have been a huge phenomenon, but it was as big a difference from What Had Gone Before as Eisner's "The Spirit" was to other superhero comics.

The second part of the question, I would say 'yes', but you're right. DC took the initiative to own the work, Moore isn't happy about it, and it sucks to be him. Complaining about "Before Watchmen" is like complaining about the existence of "Jimmy Olsen" and "Lois Lane" and "Superboy" and "Supergirl" and "The Legion of Superheroes" and "Superman Family". One can support Moore as the co-creator who *should* control his creation, just as one can support Jerry Siegel for the same reason. DC has gone to great lengths to accommodate Alan Moore - ditching the Comics Code, creating the Vertigo imprint, permitting creator-ownership up to and including "The Boys", buying Jim Lee's Wildstorm - just to keep Moore happy or try to win him back. Siegel, Shuster, Simon and Kirby would have been happy company men for life if they'd been offered a fraction of what DC has tried to do for Moore, and he's continued to do well from their regular payments. At least they haven't screwed up with Neil Gaiman.

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Terry M (Ditko Fan)

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:54 pm

ChrisW wrote:
Siegel, Shuster, Simon and Kirby would have been happy company men for life if they'd been offered a fraction of what DC has tried to do for Moore, and he's continued to do well from their regular payments.
good point
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hel Grotesk

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu May 22, 2014 2:23 am

Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. wrote:
Boycotting the talents because they worked on Before Watchmen is a waste of time & will serve no good purpose. Most are just jumping on the Moore hates DC bandwagon so they can be part of the "clique." Kinda sad, really.
Sad and pointless. If DC cant make more money they will stop selling comics marvel will be going all digital within a year or so, and DC might follow. They prolly collect some shit for TPB) might do some star wars digests for supermarket, for bookstores there might publishing the classic stuff alongside old disney reprints which wont mneed diamond anymore Most comic shops will have to close or add other things. Nostalgic in general or pop cultural meccas maybe headshops Might still carry comics mostly old some new from the smaller publishers.

in the shop I work, the boss just shakes his head eveytime we get a new pull customer who just saw latest Marvel movie and up and decided to collect comics, they wont be back and he's out the cost. not looking forward to xmen days of future past. the buffy girls who came in and did the same thing, set up pull lists when they find out they have to come back monthly, but you'd never see most of them again and we got stuck with dozen or so extra buffy issues
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Terry M (Ditko Fan)

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu May 22, 2014 1:57 pm

Where do you work?
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Peter Urkowitz

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Sun May 25, 2014 4:22 pm

That is a shame, if the movies don't lead to longer-term comics readers. I would hope that comics shops would have a better way to profit off of short-term boosts like the movies bring. That monthly habit might be too much of a reach for most people, but maybe an annual or semi-annual visit to the shop might be feasible.

I doubt that many people who don't grow up loving the smell of ink on paper are going to ever become long-term comics readers, but it does seem possible that some few of them will stick around. It will be interesting to see what happens with the generation of girls who grew up reading Chiggers, or Zita the Space Girl. There are still more fangirls today than there were 30 years ago, even if not all of the Buffy fans stayed around, for instance. It's too soon to predict the future trends!
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:50 pm

Wow, shocked to see this thread get bumped.

The new owner of my LCS says much the same thing about the movies, bringing in temporarily excited potential new readers who he tries to turn into typical pull customers. I don't know why he expects them to adopt the lifestyle, and doesn't just treat them like regular bookstore customers and steer them to the tpb shelves, tee shirts and other stuff. I think he has bigger issues to deal with.

Getting new people to adopt the once a week Wednesday habit can't be easy. Plus the guy hasn't got a handle on pulls yet, and he's losing regulars to stupid mistakes rather than movies.

This guy has only owned the shop for a year or so, and just moved it to a new location back in February, (and not by choice) so he's been going through a lot. But he keeps losing customers because he can't get the pulls right, (some go to the small shop down the road that is more a Magic cards and sports cards place, they do previews orders for comics collectors).

First off, he can't get his Wednesday comics on time. I've gone in as late as Friday or Saturday and they are just unloading and sorting or I've been told on Wednesdays and Thursdays or later that the whole shipment isn't in, just half the order, and that they are going back to UPS later. The owner says it's Diamond's fault, the clerks all say it's that they can't afford to get the all of the boxes from UPS at one time.

That can't be good.

And even when they get it done, the guy has some bad system that gets the pulls wrong most of the time, but they take the time to try and "up-sell" you by adding suggested titles to your pull box. So I'm often getting one or two of my REQUESTED pulls off the new comics racks while putting two or three comics i never asked for, back on the racks. I can see why people are getting annoyed.

And the worst thing I've heard so far was the membership fee. He announced a few months back that all pull customers would pay an annual fifty dollar membership fee, that he hadn't quite put into writing what the member benefits would be. I know more than a few of us regulars refused, so he may have dropped the idea. Given the problems he's had with the UPS deliveries I can see why he was desperate for operating cash. But he needs to get his books on the shelves accurately and on-time. There are four people besides the owner who work there. All are part-time, but still, maybe cut back on the staff by one, put in more time himself and close Mondays or Tuesdays, or cut some hours on Sundays? The place never opens up on time anyway.
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:28 pm

To be fair, when I got to the comic shop today it was probably around 1:30ish and all the shelves were full, the pulls had been sorted and done and I was told everything was in, there would be no later shipment. Yippee.

The bad news...

What should have been in my pull pile...

Doc Savage 6
Black Bat 11
Lobster Johnson: Get The Lobster 4 of 5
Miracleman 7
Godzilla**

What I was handed...

Doc Savage 6
Samurai Jack (I asked this stop being pulled)
The Dresden Files: War Cry 1*
Vampirella 1*

So I handed the clerk, The Dresden Files: War Cry 1 and Vampirella 1

Picked up Black Bat, Lobster Johnson from the current rack, which were thankfully in large quantity enough

Couldn't find Miracleman 7, looked like it didn't come in yet or was already sold out, dammit

Picked out Godzilla from last weeks rack, then put it back. Decided not to continue getting this book anymore, but didn't say anything, I didn't want to cancel a book they had obviously forgoten to pull. I'll mention it next week when it won't look like I'm pointing out the mistake.**

**(technically Godzilla was from the previous week but wasn't in the shop yet by last Friday when I came in and got my pulls then, I assume it was from a second trip to the UPS store after Friday that the owner mentioned he would be doing. He blamed Diamond for the split shipments).

I want the store to succeed. I like having a big comic shop near me. But I'm getting more and more annoyed, my pulls since the new owner has taken over are more often than not, half wrong every week.
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Terry M (Ditko Fan)

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:11 pm

I have to agree, I don't see how a business owner can expect so much from a new walk-in customer. if the movies are bringing people to your store, it should be a good thing. Don't set them up as a pull customer on day one. No one starts reading comics that wayGetting mad at new customers betrays a lack of experience.
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hel Grotesk

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:18 am

Terry M (Ditko Fan) wrote:
Where do you work?
josta few hours a week at a shop where I was a customer just picking up some extra cash
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:15 pm

Terry M (Ditko Fan) wrote:
I have to agree, I don't see how a business owner can expect so much from a new walk-in customer. if the movies are bringing people to your store, it should be a good thing. Don't set them up as a pull customer on day one. No one starts reading comics that wayGetting mad at new customers betrays a lack of experience.
Yeah, the guy is blaming everything and everybody but himself. I don't think he has any sales or retail experience. He's a semi-retired lawyer. So his first inclination is to argue. Nice guy but he should read some books about sales or retail selling.

I really don't think he bothers to try and see things from a customer's perspective. I think he just assumes we should all be as invested in the store's success as he is. Sure I want the store to succeed but it's his business. I have my own to worry about.

I don't remember how the conversation started but one day we were talking about great deals on Amazon or Half-price books. He requested I give him a heads up whenever I see a good deal. I assumed not the ones I wanted, but I was wrong, he then requested I give him the chance to outbid other stores.

How would that even work, good deals go fast. Do I call him from Half Price Books and wait for him to come buy the book so he can sell it to me? Assuming he gets there before it sells. Or do I just buy the book there for him and bring it to the comic shop to get reimbursed, then buy the book from him at a 10-30% mark-up? Sure I'll do that. No 

Or how would that work on Amazon? I asked him if the book on Amazon sells before I get a chance to get to the comic shop would he still honor the selling price, assuming he even had the same book. He said I should check with him first. Then Amazon. This guy really expects me to not shop on Amazon anymore but go to the shop first, and only check Amazon for prices after I get to the store, and if he doesn't have a book, then only should I buy from Amazon. After I drive home.

I did give him a heads up about some great deals on TPB's at HPB. Like when some collector had just unloaded a significant collection. A whole run of Walking Dead trades, or a pile of Essentials for cheap. Or when they got in some boxes from the publisher, of some Dark Horse Green Lama, Herbie and Nemesis hard cover reprint books, on sale for really cheap. He just looked at me annoyed each time, so I don't bother to do that anymore.
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:48 am

This week in the adventures of my endlessly wrong pull box...

There should have been 2 books, that IDW horror reprint and the Dynamite Steampunk mini-series. But all that was in my pull box was a book from last week, the Miracle Man reprint that I had to call and have them set aside because they forgot to pull it for me and I missed it on the racks when I did my double-check.

Did I mention that the owner is talking about charging regulars a $50 membership fee? Nothing in writing yet but I was told my $50 membership would include:

No  - A pull list (which we currently get for free, and has hardly ever been accurate under the new owner/new location)
No  - 10% discount on new comics (which we currently get for free)
No  - Access to VIP areas and times for special events (apparently some sort of book signings, movie screenings, lectures etc???? all to be named later.)

I've been a customer at this store off and on, for nearly thirty years, through four locations, two owners. But now in order to get a pull list I need to pay $50 membership fee? Yeah it's the movies that are causing problems. This new owner needs to think about things from the customers points of view, not just his. If he wants to succeed that is. Seriously, I should continue to go to a store that gets my weekly order wrong every time, charges me more for the same product than other stores, dismisses any and all complaints, blames everyone else for troubles and now wants to charge me a membership fee? All for NOTHING MORE than the privilege and satisfaction of supporting a local business.
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Terry M (Ditko Fan)

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:12 pm

I asked one of the clerks about the membership stuff, he said some people paid it and some older customers complained enough they didn't press the issue with them, but they still charge them the $5 monthly membership fee. So you may be paying the more expensive plan whether you know it or not, check your receipts. He didn't say when they charged it.
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:22 pm

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't see anything on my receipt this week, I even asked about the membership deal thing again. specifically if they have anything in writing yet.

Pulls were wrong again.

It should have been nothing this week, but they handed me four books, one was a comic I asked three times so far to stop pulling.
two mistakes and one upsell


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hel Grotesk

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:58 am

why not use online service?
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:10 pm

I think i might switch some of my pulls to subscriptions, like the Jack Kirby Collector and other Twomorrow magazines. I really want to support the local shop, I like having one near me. Its just frustrating.

The last few weeks have gotten worse, NONE OF MY REQUESTED PULLS WERE PULLED FOR ME. Yep, no books were pulled for be that were not errors or "suggestions" last few weeks were really frustrating, stuff like Chaykin's Shadow comic, Flash Gordon, the Goon, The last issue of the Black Bat, were not pulled for me, but i w still handed a pile of comics. like i said above, these were all "suggestions" or just errors.

I finally complained to the owner, i mentioned hoe that its been several month since any pulls were done right, (not just the occasional error)

he just asked me to bring in a new list
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hel Grotesk

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:53 am

sounds like he doesn't give a shit
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Joe Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:41 am

You may be right. I typed up a pull list about a year and a half ago, when this guy first bought the store from the old owner, and they have gotten my pulls wrong every week since back in January. So I'm not sure what a new list is going to do.

The new owner seems nice enough, but to be honest if they keep fucking up, I'm going to just stop going there, or just tell him to stop pulling for me. Collecting and reading comics shouldn't be a hassle. I'd probably be happy just getting trades, and not worry about single issues anymore. I get most of my stuff TPB wise, from amazon and the three bookstores near me anyway. Not the comics shop.

I did mention the mistakes a few times before, and was seemingly ignored. I assumed it was because I was being nice about it. Seriously though, I don't think I'm nit-picking here, they haven't got my pulls right a single week for the entire year so far. That's a pretty bad record. If they are going to be this demonstrably bad at what they do and dismiss anyone who complains about significant repeated errors as annoying fanboys, they deserve to go out of business.
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Terry M (Ditko Fan)

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisting the BEFORE WATCHMEN team   Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:09 pm

Well, you know me, I haven't gotten any single issue comics for almost a year now. It frees up a lot of money for other things. I just trade wait, or get reprint books. And still get a few comics related magazines. Anything I expect I wouldn't get cheaper online, or have trouble finding, I'll order through the shop.

But even then just getting books and a few mags, my orders have been screwed up more than a couple of times. I agree it's very annoying, but they usually will reorder things and get them eventually. So it isn't like missing an issue or two of a mini-series or a story arc.
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